Open Source MivaScript

[RayYates]

I understand the open sourcing of MivaScript (the language, not Merchant) was anounced last spring. Who at Miva is in charge of that effort and when might that happen?

[Vic - WolfPaw Computers]

I beleive James Harrell is...and we're still waiting.

They had mentioned 4Q 2006 as the first potential release.

[wmgilligan]

Huh?
I think your confused.

MIVA SCRIPT is essentially open source. You can create a miriad of things from MVA Script - modules, stand alones, etc - all without ever registering anything.

I think your thinking of the copernicus modules - and many of them ar enow open source.
http://www.mivacentral.com/Merchant2/merchant.mv?Screen=PROD&store_code=m&product_code=CBS-LSK

[Vic - WolfPaw Computers]

I believe he meant the open sourcing of Empresa, which had been previously mentioned, and was again mentioned at the conference.

However I do believe it will be limited to development partners.

Huh?
I think your confused.

MIVA SCRIPT is essentially open source. You can create a miriad of things from MVA Script - modules, stand alones, etc - all without ever registering anything.

I think your thinking of the copernicus modules - and many of them ar enow open source.
http://www.mivacentral.com/Merchant2/merchant.mv?Screen=PROD&store_code=m&product_code=CBS-LSK

[wmgilligan]

Isn't MIVA Empressa (the engine, not the language or the ecommerce scripts) also essentially open source already?

Starting past V3.97 (I think), it is available free of charge from the company, as is the compiler, and whatever docs they provide on the language.

I suppose they could make the engine literally open source - but wouldn't that create a multitude of different engines, all with little differences, and no one understanding what does what.

Seems to me open source usually means the scripts, not the underlying engine that drives things. But hey - with MIVA almost anything is possible!

[Vic - WolfPaw Computers]

The Empresa engine has never been open source, nor has it ever been part of any limited source kit. It has always been distributed as a binary.

The Merchant scripts have in the past, been uncompiled up to 4.13, and a limited (VERY limited) source kit available since v4.14.

From what we were told, MIVA would accept developer input and additions, subject to their Q&A, and roll additions into future releases of Empresa.

The idea here is to expand the functionality and flexibility of the engine, taking advantage of the talent of the developer community, while maintaining consistency.

But then again, we hear a lot of things at the conference that never actually happen - or do happen MUCH later than planned.

So I'm not holding my breath.


Isn't MIVA Empressa (the engine, not the language or the ecommerce scripts) also essentially open source already?

Starting past V3.97 (I think), it is available free of charge from the company, as is the compiler, and whatever docs they provide on the language.

I suppose they could make the engine literally open source - but wouldn't that create a multitude of different engines, all with little differences, and no one understanding what does what.

Seems to me open source usually means the scripts, not the underlying engine that drives things. But hey - with MIVA almost anything is possible!

[RayYates]

Vic said, I believe he meant the open sourcing of Empresa...

Indeed. MivaScript the language and Empressa the engine are not by definition Open Source although Empressa is freely available.

In an open source world one name, MivaScript or Empressa, should be selected and used. In what other language does the Language and operating environment go by different names?


I think the Open Source community behind PHP is largely responsible for its richness, success in the marketplace and why it is used for so many web applications.
1. It is extremely well documented. There are many books on the language and a very large and growing user base.
2. Extensions are added by the community driving innovation far beyond what the original developers have time or money to invest.
3. Empressa users are overwhelmingly limited to Miva customers. Proprietary languages tend to die slow lingering deaths. Grow or die as it were.

Perhaps someone at Miva might respond with an target date. We won't hold you to it; I promise. ;)

[wmgilligan]

Absolutely correct!
So - to wrap up this thread, and answer the original question...

1 - MIVA Empressa is available free from the company. Its the underlying engine.
2 - MIVA VM is available free from the company. Its used on Windows boxes (generally for development purposes).
3 - the MIVA Compiler is available free from the company. This is used to compile scripts created with MIVA SCRIPT.
4 - MIVA MERCHANT is not open source and technically, not free. It is available at alow cost thru hosting companies.
5 - MIVA SCRIPT is a scripting language with free (old) docs.
6 - Scripts (compiled or otherwise) created using MIVA SCRIPT may or may not be Open Source.
7 - MIVA has released a Limited source kit for Merchant which slightly opens the dorr to how their MERCHNAT scripts function, etc.
8 - MIVA has released a Limited Source Kit for some former Copernicus modules - essentially making these modules fully open source. James Harrell is the former owner of Copernicus and now works for MIVA in some capacity. These are available at mivacentral.com under the Copernicus listing.
9 - Anything is possible, and all of this may no longer be true the instant I hit submit (if not sooner).
10 - I love the show Boston Legal. I'm always trying to figure out which of the two guys I am - Denny Crane or James Spader.....
11 - Read #9.

[Vic - WolfPaw Computers]

Couple of corrections...

Its Empresa, not Empressa.

Empresa v3.x is not free, is no longer supported, but can be obtained through MIVA sales for a price.

MIVA VM is Empresa, just changed the name when they went to v4.x (compiled) and is free.

Merchant 4.13 and earlier are open source, v4.14 and later are not.

James Harrell is the VP and General Manager of MIVA Small Business, a division of MIVA Corp, formerly Find What.

Are you sure you're not William Shatner?

What do I know...I'm partial to Crossing Jordan anyhow....

Absolutely correct!
So - to wrap up this thread, and answer the original question...

1 - MIVA Empressa is available free from the company. Its the underlying engine.
2 - MIVA VM is available free from the company. Its used on Windows boxes (generally for development purposes).
3 - the MIVA Compiler is available free from the company. This is used to compile scripts created with MIVA SCRIPT.
4 - MIVA MERCHANT is not open source and technically, not free. It is available at alow cost thru hosting companies.
5 - MIVA SCRIPT is a scripting language with free (old) docs.
6 - Scripts (compiled or otherwise) created using MIVA SCRIPT may or may not be Open Source.
7 - MIVA has released a Limited source kit for Merchant which slightly opens the dorr to how their MERCHNAT scripts function, etc.
8 - MIVA has released a Limited Source Kit for some former Copernicus modules - essentially making these modules fully open source. James Harrell is the former owner of Copernicus and now works for MIVA in some capacity. These are available at mivacentral.com under the Copernicus listing.
9 - Anything is possible, and all of this may no longer be true the instant I hit submit (if not sooner).
10 - I love the show Boston Legal. I'm always trying to figure out which of the two guys I am - Denny Crane or James Spader.....
11 - Read #9.

[wmgilligan]

ha haha - I am much more like William Shatner (as Denny Crane), than the other guy. But - I am not nearly as bad as he is in some areas.....

I like James Spader, as he's introspective, and your not really sure where he's coming from... But - Denny Crane has a private jet, yet fights the governement when he can't fly commercial to Hawaii for a party.... I like that.

Crossing Jordan - thats good to... but have you ever watched that Scottish guy on the Late Late Show - Chris something - MAN - now he is funny!

[Vic - WolfPaw Computers]

Chris Fergueson.

Hands down he beats any of the late nite guys...

You naughty little monkeys...

ha haha - I am much more like William Shatner (as Denny Crane), than the other guy. But - I am not nearly as bad as he is in some areas.....

I like James Spader, as he's introspective, and your not really sure where he's coming from... But - Denny Crane has a private jet, yet fights the governement when he can't fly commercial to Hawaii for a party.... I like that.

Crossing Jordan - thats good to... but have you ever watched that Scottish guy on the Late Late Show - Chris something - MAN - now he is funny!

[mvmarkus]

Hi Ray et al,


In an open source world one name, MivaScript or Empressa, should be selected and used. In what other language does the Language and operating environment go by different names?

Who cares? One is the engine, the other is the language. If you drop the name "Empresa" one always had to say "the Mivascript Engine".



I think the Open Source community behind PHP is largely responsible for its richness, success in the marketplace and why it is used for so many web applications.


This is certainly true, however most of the contributions are mainly modules or programs written in PHP, not for the underlying engine. A better example may be Mono, the Unix-version of MS's .Net, which has entirely been created by the OpenSource community, before Novell stepped in.


1. It is extremely well documented. There are many books on the language and a very large and growing user base.


Yes! Yes! Yes! I can't get it into my mind why Miva Corp is not able to provide decent, updated docs. It's sad to think that this may actually demonstrate their lack of committment to the Mivascript community.


2. Extensions are added by the community driving innovation far beyond what the original developers have time or money to invest.


Yes, true. However Empresa/Mivascript gives us plenty of powerful tools to create extentions in all directions which are only rarely been used by the community - probably because they are so poorly documented. If you need special functionality that isn't provided by Mivascript, you can always go the C/C++ route and write your own libraries, use an MvCOMMERCE construct or MvCALL a service/program.

While I would love to see Mivascript being open-sourced, I doubt that there will ever be a large community of experienced programmers making significant additions to Empresa that couldn't be done with the existing options.


Proprietary languages tend to die slow lingering deaths. Grow or die as it were.


Unfortunately, there are also plenty of open-source languages out there that failed to build sufficient momentum to keep the development process going. At least Miva Corp adds a few new features here and there , even though these are mainly those that they need for Merchant (or the other products), not for the language itself.


Perhaps someone at Miva might respond with an target date. We won't hold you to it; I promise. ;)

I double this!

Markus

[RayYates]

...most of the contributions are mainly modules or programs written in PHP, not for the underlying engine. Of course; any language should have a 1000 times more users than developers. Initially most of the contributions provided were to not in modules and applications nor in the language itself but in documenting the language. From there, the user base expanded then the module developer base, then the core language base, creating a cycle. Books, documentation, and training is extensive and it is being taught in universities. ...why Miva Corp is not able to provide decent, updated docs...may actually demonstrate their lack of commitment to the MivaScript community. If Miva does not have the time or recourses, it would seem to be in the interest of the developer community to keep the community healthy. At first glance there appears to be a healthy forum community. But look at the highest posting users on this forum. It reveals; of 32,500 postings, 10,700 are from the top 6 users. That is 33% of the traffic on this forum comes from just 6 community members providing free support for Miva products. The benefit to Miva from these and the other big forum contributors is invaluable. Doesn?t it make sense to grow this base? ...there are also plenty of open-source languages out there that failed to build sufficient momentum. Yes, of course. To my mind that argues for going open source sooner, not later. A rocket sitting on the launch pad has ZERO momentum until it is launched. Launching does not guarantee a success flight, but failing to launch guarantees failure.

[Brandon MUS]

I believe he meant the open sourcing of Empresa, which had been previously mentioned, and was again mentioned at the conference.

However I do believe it will be limited to development partners.This is NOT Open Source. You cannot say that it's an open source project and then limit it to only those that pay for it... (not blaming you Vic, this is directed at Miva and I know you're just a very helpful host)

Also, I agree completely with other people in this thread that believe MivaScript/Empresa will never gain the popularity that other platforms have gained if the documentation doesn't get a COMPLETE overhaul. The current state of it is worse than the documentation for the code I write :eek:!

[sebenza]

Last I heard... it was going to be fully open source to everyone.