Same discussion, which miva5 host?

[Ashish]

I have discussed this before in email list, but i would like to know other miva ecommerce clients experience.

First thing for anybody starting ecomm site is which ecomm product and where to host. If you reading this, it means, you r pretty much decided to use miva5. Now next step comes where to host it.

I got kicked :mad: before by mentioning my host name 'westhost.com' .. so i won't start flames again, by recommending them.. though my personal exp has been good.

Wht i got from list, number# 1 spot is by http://www.hostasaurus.com
others r ->
http://www.4thebest.com/
www.wpcomp.com

So golden questions are.. what criteria u use to decide.
1. Cost of hosting (yearly or monthly)
2. Experience of hosting company with Miva5
3. Included support (like 24x7 phone, live chat)
4. Online manuals specific hosting / installing apps on their server
5. Included goodies with hosting package
like dadamail, phpbb2, statistics tools, formmail
6. Do we need to pay for each extra php utilities
7. mysql is included? or need to pay extra?
8. free "shared" certificate for starters
9. free installation help in installation of own certificates
10. Speed of servers/ availability of servers (for me yahoo.com is benchmark)
11. atlast, "reputation" of hosting company.


Now, wht i got attitude before.. "you better spend some money rather than spend time" .. In my opinion, i think, there is fine balance b/w money spend and what you got.

I won't pay 50bucks a month for "shared" hosting, unless my business returning me money atleast in grands.
Ofcourse, i would expect atleast mysql provided with miva suite. With miva5, it's pretty much standard to use it.

Atleast few php utilities installed.. for free. Like formmail, dadamail, or phpbb.
Why it matters for hosting company to provide those.

Lastly, atleast one statistics reporting utility.

[Vic - WolfPaw Computers]

I wasnt aware that Jeff Huber and co. at 4thebest was offering hosting.

You also need to consider what you get for the price you pay. Do you really need all those 'freebie' tools? How many of them do you actually use? Unlimited bandwidth and disk space? Would a few less tools you wont use be compensated for superior, knowledgable support that is available 24/7/356?

Lets consider this...

500 customers on a server, 5 of them use tons of bandwidth accounting for 90%+ of server's resources. Is it fair you're on the same server when you're not getting but a share of the other 10%?

Balancing server load is a VERY important part in hosting MIVA Merchant.

How about hard limits on bandwidth and disk space? Is your host going to cut off traffic to your site, or cause "over quota" errors because you're business is succeeding?

[DesignExtend-MSI]

I got kicked :mad: before by mentioning my host name 'westhost.com' .. so i won't start flames again, by recommending them.. though my personal exp has been good.

I doubt you were flamed for hosting there. Probably people who had and ran into problems.


So golden questions are.. what criteria u use to decide.
1. Cost of hosting (yearly or monthly)
2. Experience of hosting company with Miva5
3. Included support (like 24x7 phone, live chat)
4. Online manuals specific hosting / installing apps on their server
5. Included goodies with hosting package
like dadamail, phpbb2, statistics tools, formmail
6. Do we need to pay for each extra php utilities
7. mysql is included? or need to pay extra?
8. free "shared" certificate for starters
9. free installation help in installation of own certificates
10. Speed of servers/ availability of servers (for me yahoo.com is benchmark)
11. atlast, "reputation" of hosting company.


You're missing quite a few IMPORTANT factors, and that is redundancy, data pipelines, etc. There are many "facility" questions - and the answers to those are much more important than whether or not you get a free shared SSL cert.

I won't pay 50bucks a month for "shared" hosting, unless my business returning me money atleast in grands.

Hmmm, well, looking as you get what you pay for... what's more important? Reliability, knowledge, service, or features you won't use?

With the "little guys" you mention (you left out dotCOM, BTW), you're not dealing with multibillion companies, which means they simply cannot afford to give you hosting for $20 a month AND support you. $50 a month for reliable hosting from a company that knows MM is far worth the money. Keep in mind they have overhead as well - support staff, and the likes and they are paying higher rates to provide services than companies like ValueWeb and Interland, who buy in so much bulk they can sell it cheaper than it costs these other guys to give it.

Like formmail, dadamail, or phpbb.
Why it matters for hosting company to provide those.

Lastly, atleast one statistics reporting utility.

Note to all: These utilites are FREE, FREE, FREE - you can get them yourself. While hosts offer them as automatic add-ons, all ready for you to use, they should NOT be a selling point (unless they're offering robust stats) on a hosting package. phpbb? free, free, free - why would you pay a host to offer it?

You really have to ask yourself... Do you want to walk into your local hardware store with a digitial picture of your leaking faucet and have the guy there tell you exactly what you need, because he's an expert - been working with sinks and toilets and the likes for 30 years. Or do you want to walk into Wal-Mart and watch some teenager shrug and do the legwork yourself? All to save a few bucks?

If it's Wally World, then having someone who KNOWS MM and can fix a problem at 2 a.m. isn't that important. But if you want someone who can jump in there and fix it right there, without telling you to wait until Monday morning when the real tech comes in, you need to dig in your pockets a bit.

The arguments of pricing in this sense have been made for years, but once someone on a cheap host loses sales on a weekend because they can't get help from the company they're paying, the move onto those "real" hosting plans anyway. It's just a matter of paying the money today or tomorrow. But you're going to pay it either way--either in hosting fees or sales.

[ILoveHostasaurus]

I wouldn't use Yahoo.com as the benchmark, it's been reported recently that their support for MivaScript seems to be random from one server to the next, and since they load balance, people are finding that half of their requests work while the other have reveal their private source code to the public. :)

If price is the sole factor, or a heavily weighted factor, I don't know if you'll be able to find a host that will meet your needs. The ones that excel in Merchant hosting tend to charge more than those that don't, so it's a trade off between cost and support/performance. Generally though, unless your average order amount is in the few dollar range, using a host that costs $25/month more but that can resolve issues and answer questions will pay for itself with just an extra sale per month, which is very likely to occur if your site is running faster and problems are resolved quicker.

[Ashish]

ok two useful points..
1. Balancing server load is a VERY important part in hosting MIVA Merchant.
2. You're missing quite a few IMPORTANT factors, and that is redundancy, data pipelines, etc. There are many "facility" questions


ok.. where we heading to? lets discuss some realistic points.. from naive ecommerce business owner point of view. What he wants? and how he wants?

More business for his . more business for his partners. (that's you)
Plz don't pick on my lines..


sidenote: somebody asked how i use freebies?
1. http://www.fragranceocean.com/misc/CONTUS uses formmail..
2. If u look at sidebar, u can subscribed to.. using dadamail..?
3. http://forums.fragranceocean.com/ ... uses phpBB? (obviously no use now after these forums :) )

[Bruce - PhosphorMedia]

While I personally respect your experiance with westhost, and your other factors to base your hosting desicision here, lets look at the math:

A "cheap" account is what $15.00? A top-shelf account is what: $30.00 - $60.00...well I can see, that's twice or three times the amount you might be paying...but really. If 15.00 or 30 bucks is going to make or break you business...and I mean this with all due respect...and over 10 years of e-comm experiance small and large...then you need a new business plan...or a new business. Heck, you can chew up that kind of cash from overtime parking...too many late night lattes', etc.

[Ashish]

i don;t know why, everybody is jumping on same line of thought "cheap account" .. is wht we talking abt?

i want to know, ur thoughts, wht would u suggest for a new business owner or wht a experienced business owner recommends..

[Bruce - PhosphorMedia]

Not critizing or jumping on anything...if indeed this was a response to my post (best to actually use the Reply from the post itself or at least quote)...but.

Since the average "store owner" doesn't know bandwidth from band-aids, the best general advice is: use one of the hosts who regularly participates in these forums. Why? Well, at the very least they are compentent (or would have been shamed off the lists and forums).

I can't imagine, that any typical store owner could not go from start to well established with any of the hosts here. So, what is there to discuss? Esoteric thoughts of load balancing karma? If so, probably the MIVA Script & MIVA Empresa forum would be better suited.

[Vic - WolfPaw Computers]

ok.. where we heading to? lets discuss some realistic points.. from naive ecommerce business owner point of view. What he wants? and how he wants?


Being realistic...that in itself is an excellent point.

Its not what he or she wants - its what the business NEEDS. Many newcommers into the E-Commerce arena really have NO IDEA what they need. They see a low price, tons of "free" stuff, and think they're getting a bargian.

Quite frankly, the average business owner starting an online store is confused and frustrated with all the options and not really knowing where to start or even how to research a startup online store.

We take the time with all our new customers, to find out what exactly they want from their store, and what their budget is. In many cases, you have to educate the customer and talk them away from things they either dont need, or cannot afford.

Most hosting companies will just try to sell you a hosting package and let you beleive you need the plan with all the bells and whistles. I've had several of our staff talk more customers down from a higher priced plan or even a dedicated server, to one that will actually suit their needs - than selling of higher priced plans.

I'd rather we sell a customer what they need, and can afford - and allow their business to grow into a larger plan, than take their money just beacuse they are willing to spend it.

What YOU need for your business, is not what another person or companies needs are. You have to take every client on a case by case basis and evaluate what the best solution is for them.

Large hosts simply cannot do this. They do not have the time and resources to support clients with 'odd' needs. They want to sell the most they can.

While I cannot fault them for trying to turn the best profit they can; often it is not in the best interest of the customer as a whole.

[mvmarkus]

i don;t know why, everybody is jumping on same line of thought "cheap account" .. is wht we talking abt?

i want to know, ur thoughts, wht would u suggest for a new business owner or wht a experienced business owner recommends..

Ashishi,

You are getting exactly the experience of people who have lots of experience, and they are basically telling you to be careful with low-costs hosts. Many have be burnt before, and they know what they are talking about.

Just one example, because Pamela or David mentioned it before: If you go with a company like Interland, your initial price may be very low. But do you know that they charge you $180/hour for support? $100 for restoring a backup from archive? These are little details often well hidden in the fine print. Ask Vic or David or Remik a question and they'll have an answer for you and won't send you an invoice.

Your job as a webmaster or integrator is to be the middleman between the client and the host, and it is your responsability to explain your client that any business requires a relatively small amount of investment and will have some costs for the day-to-day operation. They are usually pretty low, but still a bit higher than what the Interlands, 1and1 or Yahoos may want to make you believe. After all, you are not running just a simple html-website, but a complex, database-driven application.

Markus

[DesignExtend-MSI]

Just one example, because Pamela or David mentioned it before: If you go with a company like XXXXX, your initial price may be very low. But do you know that they charge you $180/hour for support? $100 for restoring a backup from archive? These are little details often well hidden in the fine print. Ask Vic or David or Remik a question and they'll have an answer for you and won't send you an invoice.

Changed company to XXX because lots of hosts have those not so apparent fees.

But there's one other thing to consider - GROWTH. Just like you want to make sure you configure your store so it can grow, you want a host account that can also "grow."

Many of the hosts who look at users at numbers limit how much you can grow on the Web before it turns into a nightmare. For example, with some hosts moving up a plan (because business is increasing) requires closing one account and opening another - but not just on paper. They'll actually open a NEW MM store on another server and leave it to you to either rebuild the store or move your own data.

Any reputable host (which includes many posting on these forums) will handle all that for you. If you need to move to another server, or even a dedicated one, they'll move everything for you. That, in and of itself, is a major headache-saver.

[Barrett]

It's 2am and my cable connection has quietly gone flakey
I'm doing some updates via admin
Murphy's Law and a file gets corrupted and the store loads a page full of garbage text.
Hostasaurus answers the emergency line on first ring.
Site is fixed within the hour.

Must I say more ?

[Vic - WolfPaw Computers]

You mean other than they'd get the same level of response with us?

[Barrett]

Yep that's cool; probably they would.
Somebody needs to build a page to include the fabulous few for this never ending issue and we could all just post the link repeatedly.